Universal Health Care...No Thank You

A few days ago Soccer Mom Bobbi Jo wrote a passionate article suggesting the US should embrace universal health care. If you haven't already, I encourage you to read her article and the comments associated with it. Then come back here and read my article. I think by having both articles here at Soccer Moms we will spark some interesting debate and discussion. Please keep it civil (but then, you always do!).

It wasn't that long ago that people were actually responsible for paying for their own health care. No one expected a government entity to swoop in and save them from themselves. In fact, many of our parents and grandparents probably paid for a doctor visit out of their own pockets. Thomas Sowell writes

This was all before politicians gave us the idea that the things we could not afford individually we could somehow afford collectively through the magic of government. (Read the rest of his article discussing his thoughts on universal health care.)

For me, that really is the heart of the matter. Over the last forty years we've somehow come to the conclusion that we are owed something simply because we live in the United States of America. Every election we are ready and willing to hand over more of our responsibility to the government so we don't have to think about taking care of ourselves.

I would rather see us paying for our medical bills out of pocket and not relying on government for any of our health care issues. Then again, I'm a Libertarian and I'd love to see the government butt out of just about everything. I'm a fan of medical savings plans. These plans allow you to put aside money for your health care issues (including doctor visits, medicine, etc.). John Stossel explains why these savings plans work and actually save us money.

Here's another article by John Stossel outlining why universal health care and its lack of competition just can't work. In fact, he discusses Canada specifically.

As for the debate on S-CHIP? Please read this article from Reason Magazine that explains what that program was really doing and how we could fix it. You'll want to read through to the end; that's where it gets good. It's particularly relevant to Bobbi Jo's assertion that our capitalist mentality should be ditched in favor socialism. is not working (sorry to Bobbi Jo--I misunderstood her assertion!).

Speaking of S-CHIP--you know I have to bring this up--apparently those of us who don't want universal health care are heartless people who don't care about the children. Mark Steyn says it better than I ever could. Please read his article explaining why the real "war on children" is not changing our system for the better now (i.e., jumping off the government gravy train and taking responsibility for ourselves) and leaving it for them to pay for later.

Comments

[Bobbi Jo Hart]

hi melanie,

i can see we have two very diverse points of view, and how wonderful that america is a democracy, which encourages such wonderful debates!

i'd just like to clarify two points you made above:

1. i never said to "ditch capitalism in favor of socialism". my point was that the capitalist model is not working the way it is and needs improvement... and some improvements can be found in the model of socialism.

2. i never said that people who do not want universal healthcare are heartless people. NEVER. i merely say that i sleep poorly at night knowing that millions of children are uninsured. i believe in the common good over the individual, ultimately. i like the part of capitalism that when you work hard, you get rewards, but i do not like the part where those children who happen to be born into poor families are left in the dust.

like michael moore in SiCKO, i believe in speaking up for those who cannot speak for themselves, something rarely if ever seen on major u.s. tv networks... whose slanted news reports are driven by advertiser dollars, plain and simple.

i respect your POV, melanie. i really do. i just totally disagree. but heck, that's ok!

ultimately, i'm a solutions-oriented person. we can talk til we're blue about universal healthcare working or not, but just like our families have good days and bad, any healthcare system will have good and bad elements.

i just choose the universal healthcare system because i will never hear about a child dying because they were refused the best healthcare possible.

ultimately, universal healthcare happens to really stand by the statement "No child left behind."

looking forward to continued dialogue everyone!

[PunditMom]

And what are families who are stuck in the middle supposed to do -- too "rich" for medicare and too poor to afford their own insurance and don't work for employers who help provide it? As President Bush claims, are they all just supposed to go to the emergency room?

I think we're a better country than that.

And isn't this all just an academic discussion for those of us who are lucky enough to have health insurance? I talked to a Canadian couple last week who could not say enough about how fortunate they were to be able to raise their family, work two middle class jobs and not have to worry about whether they would ever be able to see a doctor if necessary.

[Soccer Mom Melanie]

Bobbi Jo,

Thanks for coming over to join the debate. I changed the part about our capitalism--sorry I misunderstood you.

Also, I was not saying or trying to imply that you had called anyone heartless. That attack is rampant in the media--if you aren't with us, you're against the children. I felt it was relevant to bring into the discussion because it's simply not true. That kind of emotional bullying is not helping the argument for either side and is relying on emotion instead of fact to find a solution. Again, that was not directed at you.

[Soccer Mom Melanie]

PunditMom,

No, I don't think this is just an academic argument. I really think if we can implement some new ideas things will be better for everyone. I think if people are expected to do more for themselves and rely less on someone to do it for them, they think twice about what is and is not essential. There is less waste.

I think employers will be more likely to help employees if the employee has more responsibility for him/herself. Did you read the first Stossel article I linked to? Some employers (in this case a grocery) are changing over to this way of thinking and finding it's best for them and the employees are happier.

So, again, no, I don't think this is just an academic exercise. I want some changes made, I just don't want universal health care.

[Jendeis]

An interesting debate - thanks for letting us all comment.

With regard to entitlement as Americans, I think that I'm entitled to certain rights and privileges as an American citizen. For example, the Four Freedoms. I also believe that ACCESS to the best healthcare our country can give, should be a right.

To elaborate, all Americans should have the right to purchase good quality health insurance. If their economic circumstances prevent them from doing so, the government should help them to do that. Though I'm not a huge fan of Mitt Romney, some of the solutions that they have been utilizing in Massachusetts are appealing. For instance, allowing small businesses to pool together to purchase health insurance for their employees.

With regard to the "out-of-control trial lawyers" argument, I must disagree. In Maryland (and a few other states), plaintiffs wishing to bring medical malpractice suits must first go through a panel of doctors to determine if the claim is legitimate and not frivolous before they can go to court. Do you know how much this has reduced insurance here? Zip. Zero. Nada. There are some frivolous lawsuits out there, but the reason that insurance rates keep going up for patients and doctors is because the insurance companies want more money.

[Lisse]

Wait a minute! Isn't this the same person who, a few posts ago, said "If you fall on hard times, too bad for you?" That's not heartless?

I spent more time than I care to remember in the hospital as a child. The bills must have been astronomical. I can't imagine what our lives would have been like if my parents hadn't had insurance or if there hadn't been money to cover the otherwise uncovered.

We had a toddler in our community hospitalized long term while waiting for a heart transplant that he just got. His family is not set up the way mine was. The community is running fundraisers to help the family pay the bills. It's great that we can come together and do that, but when major illness is a leading cause of personal bankruptcy, it seems to me like leaving way too much to chance.

Only a third world country leaves the basics of survival to those who can afford them. And they are usually led by people who are benefiting from the suffering of others.

Hmm.

[Karen (Pediascribe)]

Something has to be done. That's for sure. But I don't think universal health care is the answer that's going to cure this nation's health care woes.
For one, ask those in a country that has socialized medicine how long they wait for services. Here in the US if someone needs a CT scan or MRI, they can get one fairly quickly. In Canada, they may wait weeks or even months. How many people would stand for that here?
I'll throw out an idea that needs to be looked at....how about doing something about all of the lawsuits? My dh is a pediatrician and I can't tell you how often he'll tell me about something and then say, "I thought the kid was fine, but I had to order a (fill in the blank with an expensive test) just in case." It's called defensive medicine. So many doctors order things they wouldn't normally order just to cover their butts. On the 1 in 10,000 chance that their patient has something wrong. Now, 50% of his patients have Medicaid....so that doesn't mean the private insurances are paying for it, but rather taxpaying citizens! So for every MRI or CT scan or anything that my dh orders, he's paying a part of it. And he orders a lot more than he was ever trained to order because of the fear of lawsuits. That cannot be helping our health care crisis!

[Jendeis]

As I said, you really can't lay all the blame at the feet of the trial lawyers and defensive medicine. Insurance rates rise because we're paying for billion-dollar retirement and severance packages, billion-dollar ad campaigns for "the purple pill" and others, and millions of dollars to support emergency room care to the uninsured.

[Soccer Mom Melanie]

Lisse, I also said that the community should and most likely would come together to help out a family in need. I also suggested those needs could be partially met by private organizations. The point is that it's not the government's responsibility or place to bail you out if you have a problem. So, no, I don't think I'm heartless.

[Amanda]

I remember the panic when we dropped our health insurance 5 years ago because of a loss of income. I thought we were basically living without a net. What we soon realized, though, was paying out of our own pockets for regular dr. visits and perscriptions that were necessary were saving us like $500- $600 a month! Plus, we could see any dr we wanted and most of them gave us a cash discount because they knew they wouldn't have to argue with insurance over payment. Even the times we've had emergency's ended up being not so bad because the hospital was willing to negotiate with us a discounted rate. By the Grace of God we didn't have any major emergencies which I admit I feared. When my husband's income stabilized a little we looked into catastrophic insurance which still is much, much cheaper than regualr health care. We still pay out of pocket for dr. visits and such but if anything major happens we're covered.

I get so offended by people who advocate universal health care to "protect" the kids who don't have health insurance(my kids). Where's this money going to come from? From my husbands paycheck in the form of taxes! They talk about this like it's a moral issue but it never occurs to them that it's wrong to make my neighbor pay for my child's healthcare or take away his house (the IRS does that to people who don't pay taxes). I heard somebody say one time that programs like these at taxpayers expense don't improve people's lives only spread the misery around. Name a gov't program that has actually improved a situtation. All it does is breed dependence.

[Lesley]

I was discussing this with my hubby last night and he really put words to what I was thinking about UHC. Anything our govt. touches, no matter how good the initial intent ends up getting messed up. He pointed to: education system; social security; welfare...just to name a few.

He also has a freind we grew up in Canada and whose family is still there. This guy said, "If you want to die, go to Canada." Apparently his experiences have not been that great. Apparently his families experiences have not been that great. This guy is not rich, as a matter of fact I don't even know if they have health insurance in the states.

[Antique Mommy]

I don't know what the answer is, I am no expert, but what I know of history, socialized systems do not work. In terms of medical care, the rich will still get health care because they can pay for it outside of the system and the poor will stand in line and wait. Not better than what we have now.

[Rachel]

In Bobbi Jo's comment, she said:

I just choose the universal healthcare system because i will never hear about a child dying because they were refused the best healthcare possible.

I'd love for her to give one example, with citations, of an American child who died because he or she did not have healthcare.

[mothergoosemouse]

What Antique Mommy said.

[soccermom lorien]

I believe that (good, timely) health care is a right, not a privilege. As such, I believe that it should be covered by insurance of some kind. Many, many, many people can't afford insurance. Or they have to sell everything they own to pay for healthcare, or they have to choose between buying prescriptions and buying food. Just not a decision anyone should ever have to make. It's all too easy to sit from a place of affluence and say that people should either pay out of pocket or have to accept charity to get the care they deserve. Most of us here are affluent, even if we don't think of ourselves that way. If you aren't a paycheck or two away from losing your home and source of food, you are affluent, in my opinion.

[ABC]

I lived in France the last four years and can easily say that socialized health care is so much better. My daughter was born there and because I wanted an English-speaking, American doctor I paid a little more for private care, but everything else was covered. My local French family doctor provided care at the amount that the French Government would cover, so going in for strep throat or a sinus infection was free. He could always see you that day if needed and I never waited longer than 10 minutes.
I know many people in the US who are poor, even living below the poverty line, and they are very hard working. They come from tough backgrounds and are doing the best they can. Why should they not at least have a basic standard of care, provided by society, even if their job doesn't provide health insurance. If you don't want to provide for everyone, at least cover all children. It shouldn't matter what kind of family you were born into... health care should be a basic right in a civilized society.

[Happy Geek]

There are a lot of really intelligent comments made here, but I'd liketo clarify something from the Stossel article, yes, the mom of Quad was flown to the states, but this was a decision made by her docs as there were no neonatal units available at that time to handle four high needs babies all at once. She paid nothing for this, it was covered under medicare.
Is Canadian medicare the perfect system? Absolutly not. Wait times are long and it's hard to find a family doc but having lived in both countries and being lower middle class, it's a no-brainer what I would choose.

[Amanda]

Well said Melanie. I'm also against universal healthcare, nothing is FREE. I'm also a libertarian and believe in the ingenuity of mankind. With competition and a free market the costs would come down and the healthcare would get better. I don't beleive the governemet should be playing the role of charity and that if our taxes were lower, more people would be willing to donate more to REAL charities.

[Angela]

Is anyone else noticing that "no child left behind" is really leaving kids behind and isn't a program that is actually working. I respect both Bobbi Jo and Melanie's opinions I really do. But adding more government programs and eliminating/reducing the need to learn to provide for ones self so we can sleep at night isn't going to help our country.

[Rocks In My Dryer]

All I know is that I don't want the government having ANYthing to do with mine or my kids' healthcare. Can you imagine? Have you ever seen anything that the government put its hand it that became MORE efficient?

I have visions of my doctor's waiting room looking like the waiting room at the IRS...

[Kerry]

I don't believe in socialized medicine...but I also don't believe it's reasonable to expect everyone to pay all their own medical expenses out of pocket (stuff happens. complicated pregnancies, car crashes, debilitating diseases...nobody can save up for everything that ever could happen to them) Insurance should be the solution, but only if it actually manages to spread the financial risk of being alive and wanting to stay that way over as many people as possible. But right now, neither insurance companies or society are doing a very good job of that, especially when it comes to individuals who don't have insurance through their employers.

[No Blood for Hubris]

"Save them from themselves?"

Well, what-everr.

I have zero problem with my hard-earned tax dollars going toward universal health care.

I have a big problem with my hard-earned tax dollars being pissed away in Iraq while America goes bankrupt, morally and fiscally, and its infrastructure becomes a world laughingstock.

I have zero problem with Australia, Canada, and the UK, those horrid socialist states that actually provide health care for all their citizens, rather than sitting idly by mewling about how people need "not to be saved from themselves" while poor people just drop dead.

[Lisse]

OK, rhetoric aside, I think we need to start asking questions -

Why do drugs cost less in other countries than they do here ?(large scale negotiations)

Why does an X-ray cost $400, especially when many places no longer use film?

Why are individuals w/o insurance charged more than those with it ?(again, large scale negotiations)

Why are so many mistakes made leading to malpractice suits?

Why can't you spend more than 15 minutes with your Dr (because they double book appointments)

Why do doctors order so many tests? (a. fear of malpractice, b. because they can only spend 15 minutes or less with their patients)

Why are insurance companies allowed to deny needed treatments after years of premium paying?

When you read about people more frequently going overseas for less expensive care of relatively the same quality (Harvard Medical, Cleveland Clinic, Cornell all have overseas outposts), you start to wonder if our "free market" hasn't pushed the American price way up in the name of profit.

We have all sorts of problems in our system that need to be corrected, because with the growing gap between rich and poor here, we may soon have a public health emergency on our hands.

[Tara Dharma]

to say that universal health care is something that the govt. would owe us, is akin to saying that clean drinking water and passable roads are perks that the govt. owes us. It's a matter of national security - national health has repurcusions beyond the individual. It a civil society where we do, in fact, take care of each other through taxation, health care should be one of those givens.

The govt gives plenty to corporate health interests and insurance companies...tax 'incentives' and tax breaks, little oversight. So, is this 'welfare' for the rich and powerful?

[jeff]

http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/991123.shtml

Very interesting read. Basically the government really doesn't have the authority to implement many of these welfare programs to begin with. The government would be a lot smaller taxes would be lower and income tax could even be non existent and we would all have more money in our pockets to afford health care for ourselves.

Every dollar that you sent to washington get fought over how to use it. It might cost 80 cents to get your dollar back into your district so now that dollar is worth 20 cents and everyone is worse off. Keep the government out of your lives and you will be happier richer and freer.